"Mugabe has overstayed his welcome"

On Mbeki, ANC divisions and post-Polokwane SA

We are all ANC. We belong to the same organization. I know there is a view that almost all the comrades in the ANC have different views about things and different preferences about leadership. People then begin to understand the ANC incorrectly, from a wrong angle, that this ANC has suddenly changed into something else, and now there are two factions in one. The ANC comrades spoke up at Polokwane in one voice and their voice was heard.

I listened to one political analyst saying’ “Zuma should not forget that 40 percent supported Mbeki.”

Where does that come from, because we have gone to elections many times in the ANC and there has never been a portioning of percentages. Why should we create such physiology that tends to create a particular atmosphere, which by and large depicts a fissure in the ANC?

There is the wrong notion that there is new leadership in the ANC too. I don’t know why. I’ve been in the Top Six since 1991. Anyone who says I’m new in the Top Six actually has a very bad memory. I was deputy secretary-general, I was national chairperson and I was deputy president. All the time, I have been number two to Mbeki. Now for somebody to close their eyes and say, “Now there is new president of the ANC, and therefore there is totally new leadership with new policies on the way”, that person does not understand the internal working of the ANC.

On the fear of change

If I were a journalist, I would write and say, “The ANC is a wonderful organization. It produces wonderful leaders. There is no organization in the country that has produced leaders like the ANC, arguably on this continent.

When a comrade is given an opportunity to lead, we don’t have a culture where we must now try to compete with him. We support that comrade and we act as a unit. But people have always been afraid of change.

Some people left South Africa without thinking because they were afraid of change, now many are coming back here. The grass is not always greener on the other side. When there is change, people suddenly appear as if they’ve just woken up and say, “So what’s going to happen to me?”

They raise issues as if they are seeing them for the first time. The same thing happened at the time of Mandela and De Klerk. “How can a prisoner run a country?’ they said.

But he was not appearing for the first time, most people had never even bothered to read his speeches he wrote long before he went to Robben Island. Then Mandela became president and many only then saw him as an international icon.

Subsequently Mandela said, ‘Well, only one term, then I am gone” and certain people and media were concerned about Mbeki, calling him a communist. Mbeki had been interacting with people for a great deal of time before negotiations and Mandela’s election, he had been talking with business for ages and was already within the framework. Some even went to Mandela and asked him to please stay for another term. Now people are worried about me.

The fact is that I am the president of the ANC, not the current government. Government is government. If the time comes that I am involved in government, whatever decisions I make will be made in the interests and the requirements of the ANC as a whole and not as an individual.

On previous presidential policy

I appreciate the times where people believe it is an individual who implements changes or new policy, because it is that individual who articulates the policy at a given time. It looks like it’s his policy but it’s actually the organization’s policy.

There are no individuals in the ANC who can have their own policies. If you take Mandela for example, when we finished negotiations, the critical issue was the fact that we had racial discrimination institutionalized and therefore the breeding of a new nation was imperative.

The question of diversity, or unity and diversity was crucial and therefore the question of us wanting harmony among different groupings in South Africa was a priority at the given time. Therefore Mandela had to articulate that policy of reconciliation. That was ANC policy. Articulated by its leader.

It became known as Mandela’s policy, and he was a man of reconciliation, but it was effectively the ANC, which was an organization of reconciliation.

The next major priority in the ANC was that you couldn’t have a good political system with a bad economical one, as at some stage the country will break. This policy was implemented at the beginning of Thabo Mbeki’s Presidency.

Now I am president of the ANC and people are wondering what’s going to happen? The same principle will apply. There will never be Zuma’s priorities or policies. They will always be the priorities of the ANC. The question about Zuma should be if he becomes president how is he implementing those priorities, together with his leadership, pulling the entire organization together to do so.

People must understand that before we go to a National Elective Conference, we hold a National Policy Conference.

This is where all the priorities for the next period are discussed and decided upon. The ANC has already defined that.

Priorities for SA's next chapter

The ANC has prioritised education very clearly and has a very good motivation why that should be the case. It has naturally prioritized crime, which we seriously need to close ranks on. It has prioritised healthcare and HIV, amongst others.

The ANC has already taken a resolution that if Zuma becomes president, we’ll have to look at it and say these are the priorities of the ANC, how do we implement them. So they are all already there, I don’t have to come up with any new ones.

The ANC is vigilant and there is nothing wrong with them saying, “We’ll watch where Zuma goes”, but that’s what they ought to do and that’s what makes the ANC different from any other political organization. You have people within the party who look at things differently and that’s what brings vibrancy.

On Mugabe and Zimbabwe

I don’t think it’s right to judge people as there are certain circumstances in different countries that evolve but in the same breath I think Mugabe has overstayed his position. There were no limits in terms of his leadership. That is the problem with a person who stays in power for too long, you become a power unto yourself.

However I don’t necessarily blame Mugabe as an individual, if I wanted to be critical I would lay the blame at the doorstep of the Zanu-PF party. Too often we blame the individual and not the collective.

It is an organization I have known well very over the years, and they even left me in Mozambique to go take over their country. I’ve seen what has gone wrong. One longs for an example fresh from liberation but there was a huge unit called the Fifth Brigade with the sole aim of massacring the Matabeles and people didn’t talk back then.

The level of intolerance in Zimbabwe of opposition is not a new one. Zimbabwean politics has always been very robust and violent, and people didn’t pay attention perhaps because of our own circumstances. All I’m saying is, you need to criticize Zimbabwe holistically, rather than just pick up Mugabe as the only person. I know for a fact that after Mugabe took over there was a heavy concentration on building schools but I have never seen policies backing up their education policy from that outset. When Zanu-PF came into power their economy was high. In fact it was one of the best economies outside of South Africa. The criticism is very superficial and artificial on many levels though as just pointing fingers at Mugabe doesn’t solve the problem. I don’t think its Mugabe as much as the men around him. In my view, the manner in which they’ve run their party leaves a lot to be desired.

How he feels about the media

Because of the challenge I face regarding the corruption allegations, I expected a certain amount of problems regarding the media. The problem has been that there are guys who have tried me, convicted me, and rubbished me and more without substantial grounds to do so in the first place.

Because I was not responding, because I was not in court, because I did not think to stand on top of the roof top and scream out, “No, no, no!’ and answer every media query I was labeled as guilty before being proved innocent.

However, because there was a possibility that I may go to court, I knew that whatever needs to be clarified needed to be clarified in court. I could not run another trial in the media and therefore due to that, the media rubbished me. It’s not Jacob Zuma that you have been reading about because most media writers do not even know me.

Those who have known me for many years will tell that there is nothing new about me, I have not suddenly changed and become a new Zuma. I’ve grown in the ranks of the ANC into leadership in the ANC. When you guys have something serious and truthful to talk about, I listen all the time.

Is JZ a Pirates or Chiefs fan? How does he rate his leadership? Read on...

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